Following is the continuation of the conversation between
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a
Christian priest that took place on June 9, 1974 in Paris.
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a
Christian priest that took place on June 9, 1974 in Paris.
Prabhupada: Every religion believes … , not believes; it is fact that there is God. Or any religion will deny the existence of God – is there any religion? I don't think. Is there any religion?
Devotee: Buddhist religion?
Priest: But you know, it's true, but you have got so many idea of God according to your own spiritual temperament.
Prabhupada: No, God is one. There cannot be many ideas of God. That is not possible.
Priest: You have got many idea of God.
Prabhupada: No, many ideas, that means he does not know what is God.
Priest: Because anyhow, when we say "God," we have to put into words, intellectual words, what is an experience.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Priest: And this experience is different for many people.
Prabhupada: You experience … Because your knowledge is imperfect, therefore your experience is also imperfect.
Priest: But who is to say …
Prabhupada: That is … Yes.
Priest: … what is a perfect experience?
Prabhupada: No. Even we are imperfect, with our … As far as our knowledge goes, generally, just like the Christians, they say "God is great." Is it not?
Priest: That is rather the Muslims.
Prabhupada: Huh? That is Muslim.
Priest: Allah.
Prabhupada: Allah akbar. So what is the conception of God of the Christian?
Priest: As you said, it's impersonal, transpersonal, what we explain by that Trinity. It's a relationship. It's a pure relationship.
Prabhupada: Yes, relationship means that He must be a person.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why? Otherwise how you can …
Priest: It is beyond a person.
Prabhupada: Beyond the person … Just like we have got experience: when you call relation, then relation means we consider master and servant. This is also one relation.
Priest: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: So relation means two people-one master, one servant. Then relation, friendly relation that is also person. Then relation, father and son, that is also relation. Then husband and wife, that is also relation. So relation cannot be used without person.
Priest: Yeah, but wh at we don't. .. We don't say that God is object of relation but He is the relation itself.
Prabhupada: What is that, relation itself? Explain.
Priest: It 's when you are two together, when the master …
Prabhupada: Then two together means person. As soon as you …
Priest: Yes, but not God. God is beyond relation.
Prabhupada: Why? Your experience of relation, as soon as a relation two, the two persons.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: No, why not? This is your practical experience. How you can say no!
Priest: You see, I have got relation …
Prabhupada: We are two person.
Priest: … with you. But I am not in relation with God, because God is relation- ship.
Prabhupada: No, no, when you say relation, why not that relation as we have got relation?
Priest: Certainly.
Prabhupada: As soon as you say relation, you cannot change it otherwise.
Priest: Yes, but I don't make God the object of relationship.
Prabhupada: Then what …
Priest: Because I call my relationship God, not the object of relationship.
Devotee: A relation with whom?
Priest: Relation with anything.
Devotee: Tha t is God?
Priest: That is God.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Devotee: He thinks relationship with anything means God.
Prabhupada: Anything?
Devotee: Yes, anything.
Priest: Anything, anybody. When you are here, when I am {indistinct) relationship with you, then God is. You understand? But I cannot restrict God to a person with whom I could enter…
Prabhupada: But in your Bible you say, "0 Father." Relation is father and son. Why do you say in the Bible "0 Father, give us our daily bread"? So that you make relation with God as father.
Priest: But …
Prabhupada: But not anything, but father. As the father gives the maintenance, bread, so you go to God in that relationship, "Father, give us our daily bread." Just like the child asks the father, "Father, give me something to eat." So this is clear relationship father and son.
French Man: No, it's a very complicated system, the system for all these things in the (indistinct) of this country. There are two main conceptions-the Oriental conception of the Orthodox Church and the Western …
Prabhupada: No, we are not tal king of any particular church. We are just trying to understand the word relation. If you go to particular church, then another will give another church , another will give another church. But we are trying to understand the word relationship. So in the Bible it is clearly said, "0 Father," so the relation is father and son.
Priest: No.
Prabhupada: Why do you say? It is said in the Bible. Why do you say no?
Priest: You have to … I am not in relationship with any church or any dogma. This is what I have in my own experience, and I cannot speak of what others have experienced but what is my own experience.
Prabhupada: No, no, God's relationship should be universal, not that … It may be a different relationship. Just like the relationship between husband and wife, relationship between father and son, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant, so these are relationship. We understand relationship means this. And it is particularly said in the Bible, "0 Father." That means the relationship is as between father and son.
In the next issue …
The Christian priest challenges that God is beyond our experience. Srila Prabhapada wondelfully defeats this statement by saying that if God is beyond his experience then he has no experience of God at all Then how could he be so dogmatic about his opinion; he must accept a more logical explanation.