Following is the continuation of the conversation between His Divine Grace
A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a Christian priest that took place on June 9, 1974 in Paris.
A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a Christian priest that took place on June 9, 1974 in Paris.
Priest: Near our place in Poona, there was a swami who called himself an avatlira, and ..
Prabhupada: That anyone can say. I can say th ird at1atdra, he can say fourth avatara.
Priest: So if anyone can say …
Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another thing, because everyone can say "I am avatara."
Priest: Exactly.
Prabhupada: So …
Priest: So how can we have faith on anyone who said he was an avatara?
Prabhupada: No, no, we don't accept anyone as avatara. We have got documents who is avatara.
Priest: Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, Krsna is … Krsna is avatari. He is the origin. That is stated here, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. to.8]. You know Sanskrit? What is the meaning of aham sarvasya prabhavah? "I am the source of all avataras."
Priest: Yeah, but who has written that?
Prabhupada: Hm!
Priest: Who has written that SriIa Vyasa.
Prabhupada: Anywhere he has written. Krsna, Krsna has written. Krsna has spoken, Vyasadeva has written, and it is accepted.
Priest: But this is what the Christians say about the Bible, and I don't believe it (inaudible).
Prabhupada: No, no, you don't believe anything, that is another thing. That is another thing. Without belief, you cannot make progress.
Priest: Ah, you have to go beyond.
Prabhupada: As soon as you … Just like you learn who is your father. You take the version of your mother and you believe that "He is my father." Otherwise there is no other way. How can you know your father? The only means is his mother recommends, "My dear boy, he is your father." And that is perfect, that's all. Otherwise you cannot know who is your father is.
Priest: Yeah, but you know …
Prabhupada: If you say, "Mother, I don't believe it," you don't believe it, but you cannot know.
Priest: The trouble, you know, is that so many people are coming ei ther in India or (inaudible) …
Prabhupada: No, no, I mean to say …
Priest: … that "I am an avatara" or "l am .. . " So many babas exist – you know as well as I do. Now, who has to say this one is really babit They are all abusing us. Now, if so many people today pretend to be avataras and they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: But we don't believe them.
Priest: No, but they have many disciples.
Prabhupada: Many disciples, that is another thing.
Priest: Millions.
Prabhupada: Millions, trillions, that is another thing. But we have to see what is the disciple. That we have to see. Simply if somebody … So many disciples by number, we have to see the quality. What is the quality, not the number, not the quantity.
Priest: And if I had said that …
Prabhupada: It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin vetti mam tattvatah
[Bhagavad-gita 7.3]
Krsna does not say that "millions and millions of people know Me." No. Out of millions and millions of people, one is perfect. And Out of millions of perfect person, one may know Him. That He says. So we cannot accept because one is accepted by millions, therefore he is God. We don't accept it.
Priest: That's right.
Prabhupada: We want to see the quality, not the quantity. So our process is parampara. Just like in India-you have been in India-there are acaryas: Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnu Svami, Caitanya. If the acharyas accept, then we accept. This is our process. We don't go by the millions; we see the quality. Ramanujacarya, high quality devotee; Madhvacarya, high quality devotee; Caitanya, high quality devotee. If they say he is God, then we accept. This is our process. We don't see how many millions of followers. No. We l want to see the quality man. He says yes. So Sankaracarya says "Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Ramanujacarya says "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," Madhvacarya says "Supreme," Caitanya says "Supreme," then we accept. That's all. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. Tarko apratishah. Simply by argument we cannot understand the truth. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna. And if you simply consult Vedic literature, that is also not possible. There are different statements. Tarko apratisthah srutayo vibhinna, nasav munir yasya matam na bhinnam. A muni, a saintly person, a philosopher is not a philosopher or muni if he does not agree with others. He must disagree, then he becomes. So that is also not the way. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam: it is very confidential. Then how to know? Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186J. Big personalities, acaryas – that is the process. Acaryopasanam. What is that, in the Thirteenth Chapter? Acaryopasanam, we have to understand through the acaryas. That is our process. That is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.l]. We accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead not by our experience but by the experience of the acaryas who are recognized, and then we follow. Just like Arjuna accepts Krsna in the Tenth Chapter. Find Out, param brahma paramdhama pavitramparamam bhavan [Bg.10.11J. Read it.
Pradyumna:
param brahma param dhama
pavitram paramam bhavan
purusam sasvatam divyam
adi-devam ajam vibhum
[Bg.10.12]
Prabhupada: What is that translation?
Pradyumna: "Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are unborn and the all- pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me."
Prabhupada: So Krsna says, and He is confirmed by Vyasadeva, Asita, Narada. This is the process. We do not accept everyone who says "I am avatara, I am God." We don't accept. But because it is accepted by the acaryas, therefore we accept. Just like the same example I can give: I do not know who is my father, and many people will come, "I am your father." So we do not accept them. When mother says, "He is your father," then accept. That is final. I have no experience. It is beyond my experience, because father existed before my birth. So beyond my experience. So I am finding out who is my father, and so many people are coming, "I am your father." No. But as soon as the mother says, "No, no, this man is your father," then we accept. Then our business is finished. Then we get experience. Father is beyond my experience, but when we receive the knowledge through the mother, then we get experience. Arjuna says that: param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12], "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not only You are saying, but You are accepted by these authorities." That is all. I cannot get my experience of God; that is not possible. God comes, He says, and Krsna comes and He is accepted by all the great acaryas, then our business is perfect.
Devotee: This is also a translation of the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. It's a description of the activities of Lord Krsna. That's in two volumes.
Priest: It's a tremendous work.
Prabhupada: Our books are selling very nice. Last year we have sold four million copies throughout the whole world.
Devotee: This is Nectar of Devotion by achief disciple of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He quotes from all different scriptures, the Puranas, and he supports devotional service.
Priest: This is what you use for your devotional service!
Devotee: They're a model.
Bhagavan: We have many copies downstairs. You can cake. It was Lord Caitanya's plan that for the common men there would be much chanting of Hare Krsna and distributing of prasadam. And for those who are intellectually inclined, there is very high philosophy. So by Prabhupada's grace, we are presenting all these things. It is not different than Lord Caitanya presented five hundred years ago. If you have opportunity later, you can hear some of our kirtana in the temple.
Priest: Yes. This is why I am coming.
In the February issue ..
Srila Prabhupada concludes by explaining to the priest the significance of chanting the holy names of God.